Forum:Why don't Klaus's friends trust him?

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Klaus Wolfenbach used to be best friends with the Heterodyne Boys so why do his former friends no longer trust him? Barry left when Agatha was 8 so he had to have been around when Klaus returned and began his takeover so why didn’t he get in touch with him? The same goes for Punch, Judy, and Dr. Beetle. My guess is that some time during the Other War Lucrezia decided to take advantage of the fact that Klaus was gone and use him as a scapegoat. She left evidence that Klaus was or at least worked for the Other. The fact that Klaus is not the most diplomatic of people and his takeover of Europa must have convinced the others that the evidence was true. This would explain why his old comrades didn’t trust him and kept Agatha a secret from him. -- 20:37, 25 January 2009 Wilahelm2

There was a long window of time, at least from Agatha sparking at age 5 to Barry leaving at her age 8, during which Barry, Agatha, and presumably Punch and Judy were living in this world, always moving about to stay hidden. This period occurs towards the end of the Long War as the Pax Transylvania is waxing. One presumes that Barry didn't contact anyone he didn't trust during that time because he was devoting himself to hiding Agatha.

Still, Barry's a schmot guy. He'd have seen that Klaus's armies were destroying the Other's remaining artifacts and servants. (Or would he have learned that Klaus was collecting Other devices?) Also note that Barry presumably was privy to whatever event caused the Other itself to stop attacking. Barry likely helped 'defeat' the Other while Klaus was still absent. I find it unlikely that Barry believed Klaus to be the Other, but rather blamed him for something else.--DryBrook 21:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

We have no reason to believe that the Heterodyne boys actually have any idea why the war ended. It is assumed that they defeated the Other because they were fighting the Other, and the Other stopped. That is all. 204.98.2.180 18:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

We do have 'reason to believe' that the Heterodyne Boys know why the Other stopped because they were the only likely candidate to have stopped the Other that we know was involved in that war. What we don't have is 'proof'. Given that uncertainty, I think we have to account for the possibility that Barry knows more than we do in our speculations.

After all, who are the candidates to have stopped the Other 18 years ago? (a) Bill & Barry, (b) Lucrezia--who was either a victim or a villain, (c) Klaus--who was exiled and who doesn't know who did it, (d) accident--e.g. the Other blew itself up, (e) Agatha--who could only get there by time travel, or (f) an as-yet-unmentioned character. Have I left anyone off the list who is more likely than these? Of this list, aren't the top 2 most likely candidates (a) and (e)? --DryBrook 15:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

My favorite theory, mentioned elsewhere, is that the Heterodyne Boys did not defeat the Other at the time the Other War ended in Europe.

Klaus came along shortly after it ended, and found Europe in shambles, with destructive wars still raging because of the anarchy left by the destruction of the Other War.

If hyu taks der example uv many human wars, qvite often an army disappears und der local pipples tink dey defeated it, bot der vas chust mor pressing bizness for it sumvere elze. Altgorl 03:40, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Somehow, it doesn't seem to me like Bill and Barry for them to just disappear to some tropical island to sip Piña Coladas while Europe was in such shape. Of course, a rationale, involving Barry needing to tend to a severely injured and/or traumatized Bill, is one possibility. But I am inclined to prefer the other major possibility that the story line suggests.

That other possibility is that the Other War continued after it ended in Europe. While Bill and Barry finally drove most of the Other's forces out of Europe, they continued waging the war against them in the Americas. The barrier around the Americas came into existence afterwards, and may either be their creation or the Other's.

This would give a much stronger justification to their absence from the wrecked Europe Klaus found, one fully consistent with their heroic stature. It would explain Barry's infrequent visits to the young Agatha. (I don't think we know this for sure, but others who generally approve of this theory feel that Bill must have died around the time the Other War ended, or he would have been the one to visit Agatha: and Bill would not have spoken of both him and Lucrezia as though he knew them to be both dead - which was true in the case of Lucrezia, even though he was mistaken.) --Quadibloc 23:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that something took place to convince Barry that Klaus might be the Other or working with the Other.

It certainly could be evidence planted by Lucrezia.

But somehow I have another feeling. I think that just as Agatha saw a glimpse of what I think is the original form of the Other through a time portal, and Bang saw two glimpses of Agatha with Gil in the future through time portals, Barry saw something through a time portal - something involving Klaus as a revenant acting under Lucrezia's control (but with Lucrezia offstage) on behalf of the Other. Something like that, instead of just planted evidence, seems more in keeping with Klaus' sudden silence ✣ to Bang about the reasons why Dr. Beetle didn't trust him. Planted evidence he could have easily explained, while something like this would be genuinely incriminating, and frightening to Klaus himself. --Quadibloc 23:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, planted evidence would make perfect sense, while a portal into the future could indeed lead to "things in Dr. Beetle's notes that made no sense". --Quadibloc 00:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

A#1 thing to keep in mind as far as I'm concerned is that "the Other" does not have to be a definite person, or an actual enemy. There's no doubt (well, hardly any) that the personality calling itself "Lucrezia" and lurking in Agatha's brain somewhere is malevolent. So it is the Other at least for some purposes, but I think that it would be better to say it is "an" Other, one of possibly many "Others", one entity that has been "Othered".

I'm going to doubt that evidence was "planted". Although I think Lucrezia/Other did dissemble quite a bit, I would rather think that after the "attack on Castle Heterodyne" Lucrezia/Other didn't get to do much, and that largely what happened was a huge misunderstanding.

That being said, I think that Barry seeing Klaus acting under the control of Lucrezia/Other through a time portal makes sense, but I think Barry understood that it was Lucrezia/Other (perhaps in Anevka/Clank form, rather than that of Agatha) making him do those things, and that's what he told Beetle. That Barry told Beetle that Klaus at some point came under the control of Lucrezia/Other would explain why Klaus would understand why Beetle wouldn't trust him, while Klaus would be even more reluctant to speak that fact (because it was true, in a sense, around the time he last saw Barry) than that Barry thought he was "the Other", which is patently ridiculous (to Klaus).

Proximity also supports the notion that the "thing that didn't make sense" was Barry seeing Klaus act under the Other's control. By Proximity, I mean that both things happen in Volume 6: we learn about Beetle's notes as Vol. 6 opens and we see Klaus get wasped as Vol. 6 closes. Vol. 6 also talks about upcoming time travel. --DryBrook 21:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Does that make sense? I think that prose is a bit garbled but I'm not going to fix it now. (I don't suppose it's a good idea to contract "Lucrezia/Other" to "Luther"?) It isn't the only (new) theory I can come up with, but the next one is way out there.

⚙Zarchne 04:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

No, very bad idea to come up with a forced, awkward and rather silly contraction when we don't have another Other who isn't Lucrezia yet. -- Corgi 15:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

What if Klaus, time traveling somehow, is responsible (deliberately or accidentally) for the attack on the castle which sets so much of the plot into motion. -Grumpy Celt69.19.14.21 18:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That's kinda what I'm thinking! Not going into detail because I really think I'm right on this one. :D — m ^(talk) 18:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Heh. I disagree with that, too, as far as it goes. I'm tempted to send you a personal message with all my explosive hypotheses... and I just came up with a new one, which explains why Klaus' friends don't trust him (although it's not as good as the one about the attack on DK).⚙Zarchne 05:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It occurs to me that Klaus, if he time travels, might make the attack on CH becuase the Other orders him to do so. Klaus himself is smart enough to understand cause and effect and doesn't like the state of affairs. He would not want to set the cycle in motion. So, what is the Other forces his hand via the controlling wasp? A Berry witnesses this and remembers it even if he does not fully understand the situation. This is still assuming Klaus time travels somehow. -Grumpy Celt66.82.162.16 00:53, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Collecting

The evidence ✣ :

Dupree: Why didn't [Beetle] tell you [what he knew about Agatha]?

Klaus: There are things in Beetle's notes that make no sense. Apparently, Barry claimed that I . . . Well—let's just say that I understand why he didn't confide in me.

Here's a collection to date of what we think Barry's claim might have been:

1. Lucrezia planted evidence that Klaus was, or at least worked for, the Other.
2. Bill/Barry found Lucrezia, who swore Klaus was to blame for everything.
3. In a time portal, Barry saw Klaus serving the Other (because of the special wasp).
4. A time-traveling Klaus, caused (deliberately or not) the attack on CH.
5. ??

--DryBrook 21:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the 'he' Klaus refers to in "...I understand why he didn't confide in me." is Dr. Beetle. Barry told Dr. Beetle something. Klaus don't understand why Barry would say something like that, but given that Barry did so, Klaus understands why Dr. Beetle didn't trust him. Rancke 23:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. It's Beetle who 'didn't confide' and Beetle that Klaus 'understands'. What 'makes no sense' is notes about something Barry said.--DryBrook 19:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. It's interesting that the Baron began discovering the new, secret revenants shortly before his lecture to Bang. It's not very likely he would have put off testing her, or any of his other commanders, for long, once he had discovered the new danger. He also apparently only recently learned the content of Beetle's notes, having been preoccupied with "Agatha's" resurrection until just before initiating the attack.

Not just that, but they were heavily encrypted. Presumably it took the team ✣ some months to crack it.

It's likely that Beetle's notes contained information about the stealth revenants, at least. It may also have contained critical information confirming the theory that the portals were actually "windows into the future." Maybe Barry even saw the future version of the Baron through one of these windows... kneeling before The Other? Leading an army of revenants/geisters/slaver wasps? Either would probably convince Barry that the Baron could not be trusted, and from there convince Beetle, Punch, and Judy to behave the way they did.--Tatter D 20:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)